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Reseting Central Market & New Economic Rules

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by loboram, Jul 1, 2020.

?

Reseting Central Market & New Economic Rules

  1. Yes

    32 vote(s)
    71.1%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    28.9%
  1. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    First of all...I just want to take the incredibly small amount of time and effort it takes, to give proper thanks to the entire GameZ staff, and for the fact that they actually made this site and servers available to the whole world.

    Next I would like to address the fundamental problems that occur, when the entire Market economic aspects of a server, are left to the players on the server; Mainly it is not in any One player's interest, to think about anyone else but themselves, because humans aren't taught to do that in general.


    So the problem remains, how to make a thriving economy, keep players happy about the Market, while still making all facets of the game available, namely Party-Looting (formerly known as Special-Deals but since there are no more special-deals a new name is needed).

    You see at the moment, the Central Market is in shambles. The prices of ALL items, but the ones deemed by mainstream to be useful, are at their absolute lowest, with a very small increase now and then, but nothing that makes any sense at all. This is entirely because players just want to sell their items, and having to queue for an item to sell, would mean having patience and foresight. Foresight to see that if you just place the item just under the top, then the next player will do the same and so on, until all you will be able to get for that item, is a mere 5% of the original worth.

    This is an impossible barrier to circumvent, mainly because of human-behavior, so in order to make GamezBD a truly Special and custom-content server, I suggest that we just make some changes to how the Central Market works. Fully aware that it might not be something that can be tweaked, but it just might be something that @Carl and @Kolka can figure out how to do :)

    It is safe to say that "Supply and Demand" is NOT something that we can use as a basis for the future economic model, because on our servers the supply will ALWAYS be so much greater than the actual demand.

    So I propose something else;
    "Return on Investment & Return on Sales
    A store that sells pianos undoubtedly makes a higher percentage profit on each sale than a supermarket makes selling bread. But a piano sits in the store for a much longer timewaiting to be sold than a loaf of bread does. Bread would go stale waiting for as long as a piano to be sold."

    (http://www.altfeldinc.com/pdfs/BASICECONOMICS.pdf)

    Like I tried to make a case for, in another thread about the Market, it is mainly about what sells and how long it takes for the sales to go through. So if we could only make a small function, based on time elapsed on the Market, and how many units have been sold in X amount of time, then that would be a really useful model for this new economic foundation.

    High increases in price for the amount of items that are preordered, and how long time they have to wait in order to get them. High decreases price for items that are readily available, and sold rarely. Something in between for items that are available, and sold in large quantities over short periods of time.

    1. Set Minimum prices for ALL items at a maximum of 50% (x0,5) of the original value.
    2. Set Maximum prices for ALL items at a maximum of 5000% (x50) of the original value.
    3. Make time a factor in how prices are set, I would suggest a daily check.
    4. Make preorders a factor in how prices are set.
    5. Make ALL crafted items, food, alchemy, ANY and ALL crafted items, reflect the ACTUAL value of its components. Meaning that the price is set after all components are added and a bonus due to perceived worth is added.

    This will GREATLY increase the party experience on our servers, as it will improove (how it sounds not how it is spelled) the income of Party-Looting, and will therefore encourage players to cooperate as well as play together in parties.

    I know that there are "haters" out there that will immediately try to "veto" my suggestion in their social circles, Just because I am the one suggesting this, but to the more intelligent and mature players out there, I Can understand the initial shock of the item prices just greatly increasing, as well as the fact that it will then seem as if, without doing Party-Looting, you will be left behind income-wise in comparison to other players. But I can assure you that Black Desert Online is not a competition, and that there will always be players without anything else to do, that will be able to get much further along in the game than you.

    The fact that the item prices will now Sky Rocket, due to the new incredibly high maximum price, and relatively large minimum prices, is NOT going to affect the entirety of the game, as many will undoubtedly claim it will. You see, if the price of 1 item that you want to buy is now at X, then you will gain Y amount of silver when you do Party-Looting and drop that item, but under the current conditions the amount of silver you gain for that item, means that you will have to drop 10 or more of those items in order to buy the same item once.


    IF the prices ALL rise, which they won't because it only affects the items that have loads of preorders and the ones that are sold a lot, then that same item you want to buy 1 of is now worth x20 of what it is now, BUT you only have to drop the same amount in order to buy it.
    So while the price numbers rise, it doesn't affect how much you have to grind in Party-Looting mode to get what you want.


    All in All, what happens is that more silver is generated through the Central Market, and Party-Looting.
    This also means that ALL the life-skills are now a very viable form of income, and that players are incentivized to party up for a much better silver income.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  2. remilafo

    remilafo New Member

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    My opinion aside for the moment.

    Is what your suggesting even possible? This might take some reworking, deleting or creating of source code for this game.
    And at one layer deep this might sound like a good idea but everything has a domino effect in this game. So if item X becomes worthless or of supreme value then what happens to the items used to create it? do they suffer the same affect or are they ignored. This proposal is complicated man..

    What might also happen is that the market might change so much that only "one" method becomes the defacto way to make silver. This might not be a problem on this server since the free pearls give you 300m per day AFK at that, no other AFK method comes even close to this.

    Can you give me a more tangible example for consideration. Your post sits at the meta level but do you got a or some specific items in mind?
     
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  3. Chiclete

    Chiclete ꜱᴀᴄᴇʀᴅᴏᴛᴇ ᴅᴀ ᴊᴜᴊᴜʙᴀ ꜱᴀɢʀᴀᴅᴀ Staff Member Black Desert Moderator

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    I don't know what to think when I see players talking about economy on this server... Just realize that our rates and drop chances are way higher than retail, that alone is reason enough to break a game with player based economy, because everyone can get what they want, regarding RNG. With those changes ppl can get faster to the end game and not worrying about other ways of making money, such as lifeskill, wich explains the Desert Market we have here. Is it healthy? No, and that's where you find out that Black Desert isn't only grind and pvp.
    What could be done to change that? To start, staff need to stop breaking its own game. What that means? Means that they can't add things such as Caphras exchange because it will accentuate the problem, because you take so much from one side and give it all to the other (in this case, taking from lifeskill and making it easier for grindrs).
    The only thing I would consider is to raise maximum prices. And I would add one simple suggestion: make floating prices raises or lower faster, because we don't have the same player base as retail to keep things moving around.
     
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  4. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    There already answered in my Original Post.

    Sorry but this is where you lost me...I have no clue what you are on about, I am going to have to assume that "the one method" you are referring to is the mainstreamers "one-way-to-play"-idiotic bullcrap?
    Which is entirely wrong, because there is no one person in the world that could, or should for that matter, come up with one way that ALL people in the world like to play their own game. So no, that is just a myth, what it might represent is a way to play a game with as little enjoyment as possible, because it is just about how quickly you can "win" and not actually having fun while playing game, which the intention of games factually is.
    Dangit...there I go again...ranting :D
    Sorry about that...nothing personal really, it is just that I cannot understand why anyone would want to follow...be a sheep...be blinded by the mob-mentality...it just infuriates me is all, because that is how dictators, and the Nazi's get their power, from a bunch of humans who just follow blindly, without thinking for themselves, without ever criticizing what they are a part of, feeling the power of tribal-mentality overtake them and never questioning anything.

    Alright and now back to the problem at hand..."gaining 300M AFK" I will have to assume, that this is you saying that you can trade the Free Pearls for Artisan Memories and then exchange them for Caphras Stones? Would it have killed you to say so? Alright...I do not understand how there is still a market for that when EVERYone can do the same? How come there are STILL players paying silver for Caphras Stones then? Yeah, I dunno...This is not something that I wanted to be a part of GamezBD, I have to agree with @Jujuba on that one, it was a major-league-ball-fumble, from the administration to make that decision.

    About what exactly I meant, it really isn't a puzzle or something you would have to interpret, it is exactly that; a Central Market overhaul.

    Resetting all item prices, so that they cannot drop below 50% of their original value, which they now can and evidently have, as well as an increase to the maximum value of items up to 50 times their original price.
    ALL these changes can be accomplished by a few added tweaks to the "base-code", and added mathematical functions, that code for the Central Market behavior. NOT an impossible task at all, in fact I myself could come up with the functions if needed.

    Not really sure what to say about the other comment...except that I really like the idea at the end, which is already in my plan above;
     
  5. Whineseeker

    Whineseeker New Member

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    easy solution: I guess GMs have got endless money and items, right? why can't they just buy half the caphras on the market (for example) or add the t0 materials for bartering (another example)?
    that would be a great help for the economy, active control over it by gms
     
  6. marsseven

    marsseven Proficient

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    This is easy.
    Because it is communism of pure water ...:stop:
    With the rest, why should GM buy?
    Let GM each player (maybe not everyone, only the poorest), send 50 billion by email.
    Why should we regret it:cool:
     
  7. Whineseeker

    Whineseeker New Member

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    Since the game has so many differencies from retail, GMs should actively control the market to mantain it healty, it's just a FIX since the economy is so unbalanced
     
  8. marsseven

    marsseven Proficient

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    How is the economy, everyone.
    And as in any economy, any external intervention is its inevitable end.
    We have too many examples.
     
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  9. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    @Whineseeker I just wanted to answer your post, and I am sorry to say that (as far as I know) there are no Game-Masters in GamezBD. The Administrators and Developers might drop by once in a while, but there are no players or staff elevated to Game-Master status in-game or have any powers. Not quite sure if this might be a good idea or not, but I gather that the incredible amount of differences between humans in general, would make it quite difficult to have some form of "common-ground".

    So one GM might react harshly towards sexism, another might react badly towards racism, while the two might not react at all towards what the other one really finds offensive. Might just be more problematic than good for the staff, since it would create internal disputes almost all the time.

    One GM punishes a player for breaking the ToS, and another lets the player back in on the same day for not thinking the same, then the two GM's start reporting each other over and over again to the higher-ups in the staff, which then leads to having more work to do, also trying to not make a fool of GamezBD because of the way several GM's are handling things. But only one GM wouldn't be much better since no one human is able to be objective, and would lack a several persons point of view, which is the core of the problem. Also, no one human would be able to be online 24 hours a day, for 7 days a week.

    All in all it seems to work quite well as it is, players being able to police each other, and reports end up on the "desk" of the higher-ups to decide, what is against the rules and what is not, since they are ultimately responsible in the end anyway.

    About the comments to the thread topic, I do not think that having the staff getting involved in "trying to fix" Central Market would be a benefit, just more work to be done because of course it would be abused by some players who find some sort of loophole or trick. Also it would mean that the staff would have to monitor the Central Market as well, and make tweaks every now and then, so an ongoing job with no end.

    This is just one of the really big problems about the Central Market and our community GamezBD-servers: "Supply and Demand" simply doesn't work.

    The facts are that the amount of items dropped will ALWAYS make a disparity between supply and demand, and to make things a whole lot worse, there are simply too many players who actually "buy-into" the belief that mainstreamers "put out there" that there is only "one-way-to-play", leading to a handful of items ALWAYS being in demand and at the highest prices, while the ENTIRE rest of the Central Market just goes nearly unused.

    SO, as I suggested, the Central Market NEEDS to be adjusted, in order for it to Actually work here on GamezBD, due to the many differences between "retail-bdo" and our servers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2020
  10. lumoz123

    lumoz123 Getting there

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    Maybe u now understand why i tryed to apply the thread "differences retail <-> gamezbd" since ur thread doesnt even cover a fraction of what is totally diffferent on here.
    Wanted to make this a community work, so these problems would be something from the past.
    But here we are, wondering why ppl still buy caphras out of mp...
    To bad this goes through the whole server.

    Players getting bashed for selling at min price etc.
    I waited 6 hours to sell a TRI Kzarka shortsword on min price with no luck.
    But TETs getting sold on mass to up to pen. yay.
    Same for DI Ogrering on min price. 2 days advertisement to sell it. (since 64 capotia is to easy to get).
    Only a fraction of players have enough cash.
    Giving us 12 riftbosses a day, but making the loot worthless (ogre, layten etc all below 30mil wtf).
    This server is a very good and demanding project, but there seem to be adding up problems.
    Another example: dimtree starting at 300mil...
    You wana make silver? go follow boss trains like a brainless lemming (or a sheep as u said before :D) and hope for the drops. Super fun. Funny thing thou, this feels like guild wars 2 with its living world xD
    I feel like i hit a wall in progess earlyer than i did on retail.
    Stuck for 3 days at 228ap... not fun.
    Players comin from retail dont get how to make suficcient cash at all here (or buy caphras from mp, wich will be my new bdo runninggag now).

    Ill stay with what i said before: Make a sticky thread, make another collumn on gamezbd.net and explain the dfifferenzes. Or even bether (make a big banner in the launcher... cant be to hard, if u actually made your own launcher:/ ).
    Caphras stones in mp would dry out since all would know where to get em.

    And another fix?
    Remove extra cash from VP... problem solved.
    The demand is much lower than supply? Take away the 30% extra cash from VP (wich is 2 nights afk on here to get it so everyone has it) and u have way more ballance (not nearly enough, but one of the biggesstpossible leaps and also fair).
     
  11. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    Hehe...hello there @lumoz123, I can see that you either deleted the rude commentary you used to have as a signature, or just made a new forum account :p

    In any case, thanks for not being too antagonizing, and addressing your "differences" topic, here you go: http://forum.gameznetwork.com/threads/gamezbd-server-special-custom-content.232858/

    Also yeah, I get that the problems are mounting, but this is exactly why I have on many occasions tried to get players into the forum, and especially to add posts to the suggestions section, so that the staff can see how many players want the changes or at least agree that something should be done.

    [​IMG]
    https://imgur.com/a/lS78xao
    This is Exactly what I am trying to say: The Central Market standard formular is BROKEN!
    It should be clear from the screenshots here, that players are selling these enhanced items for about 50% of price they should really have, according to the base price of enhancing stones.

    This is my suggestion to Solving the problem:
    https://imgur.com/a/sZIrKni
    Just an example, but as you can see this worker is getting roughly 20 basic materials, and let's just say 2 rare materials per round-trip, now this particular site has 3 resources that available, but it is important to focus on the two first materials, as they give a baseline.

    Theory is that the materials are limited by the amount of resource sites, and how much the workers are getting from those resource sites on average. Then you multiply those two numbers, but divide by the average time it takes for a worker to get said resources from the site and back to the city whence it came.
    Amount_Nodes * Average_Gathered / Time:
    2 Nodes for Powder of Earth
    2 Avg. gathered Powder of Earth
    roughly 60 minutes gathering time
    4/60 = 0,066667 amount of RARE Materials per minute.


    The Pricing could be set according to how much one Pearl equals in silver, and based on the amount of Pearls that players get for free: 80/60 = 1,3333 Pearls per minute.

    Outfits & Costumes avg. Central Market silver value (screenshots of GamezBD CM) / Outfits & Costumes avg. Pearl value (https://grumpygreen.cricket/bdo-pearl-price/):
    (200+250+300/3=) 250 Million Silver / (2200+2900+3400/3=) 2833,333 Pearls = 88235,31 Silver
    Functional Items (screenshot of GamezBD CM):
    87,5 Million Silver + 83,5 Million Silver / 1250 (Blessing of Kamasylvia) + 1500 (30day Value Pack) = 62181,82 Silver

    88235,31 + 62181,82 /2 = 75208,57 Silver per Pearl on average / 1,3333 = 56407,84 Silver per Minute on average.

    Then after GamezBD have come up with a number of silver-game-currency per minute, then they can make the formular for ALL materials based on Workers from that game-world and their abilities to gather materials. That should REALLY be the basis of pricing, since the players are "Adventurers", and therefor well above average in comparison to the Workers of the game-world.

    So for instance the Rare Powder of Earth, which can only be obtained in two nodes in all the game-world, yields about 2 materials, and takes approximately sixty minutes to gather, would be worth according to my calculations:
    56407,84 / (2x2/60=) 0,066667 = 846.113 Silver for 1 Rare Powder of Earth.


    However another Material that is Much more common for instance Rare Powder of Time, has 6 nodes from which to gather it, yield 2 as usual, but only takes on average 40 minutes:
    56407,84 / (6x2/40=) 0,3 = 188.026 Silver for 1 Rare Powder of Time.


    One last example, could be the Zinc Ore from the screenshot, 20 Zinc Ores on avg., from 4 nodes, avg. gather time aprox. 40 minutes:
    56407,84 / (20x4/40=) 2 = 28.204 Silver per Zinc Ore.


    Once the base pricing has been worked out for each Material, then it is just a matter of adding these prices together for the base prices of all craftable items, and a price will then emerge for all non-craftable items as well based on the other items.
    GamezBD just has to add a certain Special profit margin, that the top management has to decide on, which is the + x%.


    1. ALL materials = amount of resource-nodes available x avg. amount gathered / amount of time for worker rotation
    2. ALL items = minimum prices of Materials for crafting + x% profit
    3. Enhanced items = minimum prices of Enhancement Value + Materials for crafting the items + x% profit
    4. more to come?

      So...the question becomes HOW do we the poor Players earn Enough Silver to PAY for ANYthing anymore?!?

      But it shouldn't really be that hard; Because the Party-Looting will now equal the price of the craftable items, which in turn is based on the worth of the Materials. SO when the price of Materials go up, the Value gained from Party-Looting is also increased accordingly :D

    One last thing I just thought of: Maybe it is time to implement my earlier suggestion?

    http://forum.gameznetwork.com/threads/workers-increase-efficiency-value.228989/

    http://forum.gameznetwork.com/threads/reworking-of-loot-tables.230865/

    I know it might seem offtopic, but it is EXACTLY right for this thread.

    The Worker improovement (not how's it spelled), and the custom GamezBD loot-tables, which you could then change incredibly easily, whenever you want to, the content of entire Regions in a matter of mere minutes, instead of weeks of work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  12. Kolka

    Kolka <Prison Officer> Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Send me pm your account, we will delete it. Looks like me or admin just not recieved your request or mistakely lost it.

    About economy - there is too many changes u offer and it will be hard to have it from version to version, every time we will need do big job and have a high chance to make logic bug in economy. I saw people operate here with phrases like economy need heal etc. I cant agree with that. You just not understand what is economy which need heal. When u have silver and cant buy anything for it - thats economy what need heal. When nobody totally need silver and nobody sell anything. In our case if u open market - its full of items and people glad to sell u something, and other people glad to spend silver on something. Yes to be honest we do some interventions on market, but not directly, we not buy or sell items on market, but we have another instruments for balance it. Every week we make auctions on Vell Heart and Donate coupons for silver, sure most of you just look on it like on possiblility for 4 people per week spend their silver. But for analytics its more deep feature. We can see how much players can offer for weapon coupons. And u can see that items which cost 10 usd in pearl shop, usually nobody want pay more than 2-3b for it on item auction - for analytics that signal show that players not have unlimited unvalued silver, its mean people need silver and people ready to sell goods for it and not ready to pay more silver for donate item. And we do such analyzes in other game mechanics too. That make us possibility to not remove caphras buyers npcs, sure if we feel that economy in danger and need balance it, then we will just remove caphras buyers, but if u see it alive its mean nothing bad with economy at this moment and no need balancing it. If we need balance we will operate with caphras buyers first.
     
  13. marsseven

    marsseven Proficient

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  14. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    "In The Theory of Moral Sentiments Smith uses the concept to sustain a "trickling down" theory, a concept also used in neoclassical development theory: The gluttony of the rich serves to feed the poor." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand)
     
  15. marsseven

    marsseven Proficient

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    Lobi, do not duplicate links, please (yum)
    But yes, it is the best that can be done, and actually NOT done.
    In my country, in the 90's, after the borders were opened, there was everything you want.
    But bureaucrats whores could not allow citizens to do what they wanted, without any regulations.
    And now they all have the same and the same, under the watchful eye of the party and the envious neighbor:confused:.
    It's a pity because it was so beautiful, Gauloises Caporal and Gitanes'es in every shop ...
    A tear in my eye is spinning(disappointed),
    I'm going to smoke (grind)
     
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  16. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    Fair enough...sorry about the dual link, I just found it easier to see the link in full, I know; oldfashioned :p

    90's? OH, I think I know what you are refering to...no need to bring that up in here ;)

    Hehe...funny enough, I am seriously thinking about getting myself a Pipe, since I have been smoking WAY too much lately.
     
  17. marsseven

    marsseven Proficient

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    The man looks noble with the pipe:pompus:.
    I'm just begging you, not electronic cigarettes.
    Because you know, the next step is a blow-up doll(grind).
     
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  18. loboram

    loboram Respected Member Forum Legend

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    :hilarious: :joyful: :playful:
    Thanks, you made me laugh, needed that ;)
     
  19. Legendario

    Legendario New Member

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    The cm is more, and more dead... Telling you someone who tries to buy materials to do cooking and alchemy everyday.

    @Kolka do you really think that "Vell Heart auctions" help us?
     
  20. Khazz

    Khazz New Member

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    Well i'm partly the reason the CM is currently the way it is, i said 3-4 months ago, i'm going to utterly floor the market, and people laughed. Well they didn't laugh when i used my 800 something bil at the time, to floor every popular item of value because i was bored. Welp now i afk either way, and the "stupidity" of people keeps the prices down without me having to do anything. People complaining about not having silver, simply have 0 sense of economic manipulation.
     

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